Interview with Criminal Defense Lawyer Laura Menninger

I had the distinct honor and pleasure of interviewing Laura Menninger from Haddon, Morgan & Foreman in Denver, Colorado. Ms. Menninger is a graduate of Duke University where she graduated magna cum laude and Stanford Law where she was an associate editor of Stanford Law Review. She clerked for the Honorable Lewis A. Kaplan, United States District Court for the Southern District of New York. She is considered one of the premiere criminal defense lawyers in Denver and around the country. I hope you enjoy getting to learn more about her as much as I did. 

How did you get started in criminal defense? 

I initially thought I would go into civil practice, until I took Barbara Babcock's criminal procedure class at Stanford. Barbara’s passion converted so many Stanford students to public defenders. She not only helped found the Public Defender Service (PDS) in DC, but she was instrumental in activating many public defender systems across the country. Although I wanted to be a criminal defense lawyer, I went to work at Paul Weiss right after my clerkship. There I tried to find any opportunity I could to work on pro bono criminal defense matters. I took on some cases with a partner who had been an AUSA in New York and had my first huge criminal win in NY criminal court. Then 9/11 happened. I had just had a baby and thought, “there is never going be a perfect time for me to do the work I always wanted to do.” So, my husband and I decided to quit our jobs in New York and move to Colorado. When I got here, I applied to be a public defender. 

What about being a criminal defense attorney inspires you? 

I really have a passion for human drama. I am a closet social worker and moved by helping people in difficult circumstances. It was not forensics or firearms that drew me in so much, it was, and really has always been, all about helping the client. Babcock shared numerous anecdotes from her days as a public defender and helping people at their lowest moment; I  remember sitting in the classroom, thinking “you get to do that for a living?” It really appealed to me. I went to a very inner-city high school in Macon, Georgia where a majority of the students came from tough social economic backgrounds. I felt for so many of my classmates who were poor and living through such tough circumstances. I guess you could say rooting for the underdog came naturally for me.   

Even today, the clients that still grab my heart the most are those who come from difficult backgrounds. I am moved by trying to find the mitigation in their story, trying to understand where they came from, why they have gotten into the situation they've gotten into, whether rightly or wrongly, of course, doesn't matter to me. That part of my psyche and my appreciation for the work has not changed over the last two decades.

Most trial lawyers have great stories about moments in the courtroom or about their work. What are some of your memorable moments and cases? 

Whenever trial lawyers get together and the stories start flowing, it reminds you of your own trial experiences. I remember being 6 months pregnant with my second child and trying three serious crimes of violence back-to-back in 3 weeks. I won all three—a hat trick! I thought: “I cannot believe I just went through this in the condition that I'm in!”   

Another case that has stayed with me was a court-appointed case I accepted right after I left the public defender’s office. This case was a very high-profile case in Denver where the client was charged with child abuse resulting in his daughter's death. She was 10 years old and was killed in a shootout when a couple guys came to rob him. The government's theory of prosecution was—those guys came to rob him, but because he had been selling marijuana out of his house, he invited that danger. So regardless of whose bullet killed her, it ultimately was his fault. 

There were a lot of make-my-day motion issues and the Denver Police Department was very fired up about the case. Ultimately, my investigator uncovered evidence that a police detective had planted drugs on the 10year-old girl after her death to try to strength their case against our client. The prosecution argued that she had been the one carrying drugs to the door. But we had three witnesses, including a police officer, who saw the girl shortly after her death and testified she didn't have drugs in her hand. It was a troubling and shocking case on all fronts. My client was acquitted of the child abuse and it was a case that helped launch me here locally because there was so much media attention surrounding it. It also resulted in me not being in the highest favor with the Denver Police Department when the headline in the Denver Post was, “Lawyer accuses Denver police of planting drugs on a dead 10year-old.” But that was the truth. 

Do you keep in touch with your clients after a case is over?

I do and I love it. There are former clients who send me Christmas cards every year. There are ones who call me once a month. There are very discrete representations that no one will ever know about, because the case gets no-filed, and sometimes the client calls years later. I had one of those clients recently call me to say he's applying to become a member of the Bar and has accepted a job as a public defender himself. I almost started crying because to see the difference that I made in his life by getting that case resolved and knowing that he is now in a position to become a public defender himself was just heartwarming. Occasionally, I randomly reach out to clients for various reasons and say hi and check in on them to see how they are doing. I am very protective of my clients, present and past. 

You clearly have reached a level of success in your career but how do you measure your own success?

One measure is to see the difference I make in people's lives and it is certainly the one that feels the best. I keep a list of cases, the trials and the resolutions, because sometimes, especially when you are getting yelled at by a judge or getting random hate mail, it's easy to forget how many people you've helped and how many different ways you've helped them. It’s nice to look back over that. 

I also think about times when I am successful at formulating novel legal issues. I consider myself a law geek. At this point in my career, I get asked to speak at a lot of different training programs in Colorado. Once I had a federal prosecutor, who was sort of a long-time giant in the office here, say to me that he marveled that I was always able to find the smallest crack in a case, whether it was legal or factual, and just keep exploiting it until I got what I wanted. That is how I see what I do and being able to exploit those cracks is a measure of success for me.

What do you find are the most challenging aspects of your work? 

Sometimes, there are clients who are in dire straits and need a lot of hand-holding because of the situation they find themselves in; that can be exhausting and challenging. There are some judges who are openly hostile to our clients and our positions which is equally challenging. I think, maybe, the most challenging is where you have a combination of three or four challenging elements: difficult law, difficult facts, difficult judge, difficult prosecutor, and difficult witnesses who won't talk to you. Another challenge is when people don't want to get involved. They don't want their names to be out there, which is tricky to deal with. 

In higher profile cases managing the three-ring circus is extremely difficult. You've got media attention and then trying to do an investigation in the face of media, it is really challenging. 

When representing a company, there are unique challenges when something bad is alleged to have happened under their roof, and they have PR problems that they are trying to manage. It can be a struggle to decide what can be said and how much to reveal or not reveal. As their lawyer, I can give ideas and guidance and recommendations but ultimately, the client has to make some tough decisions about to say publicly. 

You have had experience handling high-profile cases. What is your policy on following the media reporting during one of your trials? 

There are lawyers on both sides of that spectrum; some who won't read any of the publicity while the trial is ongoing and others who read everything and assume that the jurors or their families are reading it and feel like they need to adjust based on what's being reported during the middle of the trial. I'm somewhat in the middle. 

I think you have to tune out a lot of the noise, but I have had so many jurors stricken because they had already read everything. I had a trial last year in Aspen, and we had jurors who, as soon as they got the jury summons, went online and figured out what trial they were going to participate in and then read everything about it before they got to the courtroom.  Then they told all the other jurors in the venire what the trial was about and what our client was accused of.  It was horrible. It's a problem in small towns just as much as it is in the big cities.  

Is there a particular experience that helped you develop your trial skills? 

To me, writing skills and cross-examination skills are the two most important components of a criminal defense lawyer, though there clearly are many different skills—people-skills, listening skills, oral advocacy—that are also necessary.

The fact that I had a phenomenal clerkship with my judge, who is a brilliant legal mind and writer, and then honed my writing skills at a civil litigation practice helped me become a very good writer and legal thinker. When you start as a public defender, the time pressures on all the lawyers in the office and even on the judges plus the nature of the cases make it very challenging to get the kind of feedback needed to develop good writing skills.

And yet, there truly is no substitute for in-court trial and cross-examination experience and that is what you gain by working as a public defender. The volume of cases you handle and the way you become so skilled as a cross examiner by doing it over and over and having your colleagues watch you cross a major witness and give you feedback is invaluable.

For a lawyer who is beginning to hit their stride, maybe 7 to 10 years out, what do you think is important for them to focus on?  

Well, obviously one is honing your craft. Also keeping current on new cases coming out in your jurisdiction and nationally. I read all of the slip opinions and case summaries as they come out at the federal and the state level because that is how you become aware of issues to issue spot on all of your cases. 

If you are not getting enough courtroom experience with the cases you have because you're at a firm, try to find other ways to get into a courtroom, pro bono or court-appointed work or whatever. You can't let those skills get rusty, depending on where you are in your development. Once you get past the basics, and you know how to handle yourself in a courtroom, it's important to start looking around at the community and finding ways to get involved.  

When I left the public defender’s office and had not gone to law school in this town, I didn't have a strong base for business development. I found it invaluable to get involved in bar associations. I started teaching and volunteering to give trainings at the federal defender offices, alternate defense counsel offices, and at the Colorado public defenders training programs. At some point, I was asked to do a road show where I traveled throughout Colorado and lectured on literally all of the criminal decisions that had come out in our state in the last year. I went to every small town, something like 20 cities.  I was exhausted, but I got to meet lawyers from all over the state. Consequently, when they had issues that came up, they called me. I started getting a lot more calls that way. 

What is a misconception new lawyers have about what to expect in trial? 

Young lawyers think that whatever the witness said in the witness statement is what the witness is going to say on the stand. I have never seen a witness take the stand and say exactly what they said in the witness statement. You don't know which way it's going to go. It could go better for you. It could go worse for you.

Do you use any special strategies to help you during trial?  

One prominent national speaker who is based in Denver is Larry Posner. He uses the chapter approach to cross-examination, and I subscribe to this technique. I highly recommend for anyone to pull-up one of the online CLEs to learn it. On a personal level, my weird trial quirk is that I always start my trial days at 4 a.m., head to Starbucks and grab my coffee and an egg salad sandwich for lunch, that I eat in the courtroom while prepping for the afternoon session.  

Is there anything you’ve learned that you would like to impart – from your personal experience?

I highly recommend Barbara Babcock’s memoir, Fish and Raincoats, for any female criminal defense lawyer. In addition to her folksy tone and varied experiences from lawyer to academic, I recall that she was amazed at some of the students who came up to her and said they wanted to be public defenders. She thought, “really? cause you're so quiet, I don't really see that working for you,” but then was amazed that they had turned out to be fabulous trial attorneys. I think people who are considering becoming trial lawyers may perceive that they need to be one type of person, very extroverted or flamboyant. Those who might think becoming a criminal defense attorney is not right for them because they don't look or act or perform the same way that they have seen on TV. But I’m introverted and quiet and have used that to my own advantage. I think it's a pretty big umbrella. There are many types of people who can do this job very well in their own style. Don’t let the TV version of lawyers or law practice intimidate you. On the other hand, it’s a lot or hard work and sleepless nights, so it is certainly not for everyone, to take on the stress of someone else’s liberty. Ultimately it is a highly rewarding, intellectual, and fulfilling career path, for those that feel as passionately about individuals’ rights and helping others as I do.